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    August 04

    The Delicate Balance between Philosophy & Science

    I am sorry for the long duration between blog entries. I have returned from New York where I was doing research at the American Museum of Natural History and was quite successful. (For many of you who have been genuinely or acerbically concerned that I would be “Destroying my scientific career” by questioning long held dogmas, I would like to reassure you that things are going great.) The research done in New York will soon result in a new publication and lectures for scientific societies in Southern California this month.

     

    Now for a quick note on some of the comments in the last blog.  “CamilleS1957” asked me “What are you grounded by?” She asserted that she is a strong Christian who believes in a living Creator God. This is my response for CamilleS1957. I am grounded by science. Honest objective science is what I actively seek in my life. Because of that I end up taking a lot of heat from both sides of this debate. There is nothing wrong with a solid faith in a deity, however, as a scientist I cannot and will not say that God absolutely exists and that makes a lot of Christians angry. I have certain personal beliefs and inclinations, but I do not have proof and will never have proof of an all powerful Creator God. I do not feel the need to defend the Bible at all. If the Bible is a true document then it will stand up to the test of science. (See my first blog entry.) My goal is to follow the scientific evidence where ever it leads me. On the other hand I have all the members of the evolutionist camp angry because I am willing to ask the difficult questions that the theory has either neglected or ignored. Especially in the area of Abiogenesis, naturalism has a lot of work to do before it can put together a really strong case for the origin of life. For writer “rrt” I want to reassure you that the tenants of evolution are certainly not fact. Evolution has only been testable and provable on very small scales. Evolutionary mechanisms have the ability to distinguish new species through adaptation and selective breeding, but it has never been clearly demonstrated that these mechanisms can be extrapolated into the origin of entirely unique features and systems. These are important questions that we have not found the answers to yet and may never find the answers too. And these questions have huge implications on our worldview and paradigm of life.

     

    Maybe some of you have read Stephen Jay Gould’s book “Rocks of Ages”. Gould is one of my favorite scientific writers and I feel he was willing to look outside the box for answers which science was not yet ready to tackle. In this book, however, he asserts that Religion and Science operate in two distinct “Non-Overlapping Magisteria”. What he is saying is that both realms of thought have equal importance but occupy different areas of our human experience. Gould states that religion cannot speak on matters of science and science cannot speak on matters of metaphysics or religion. This is why it is pointless to try to prove that God exists. Where Gould makes the mistake though is when he states that one should not affect the other. Of course the discussion of our origins is going to affect our paradigm on life. It is preposterous to think that it would not deeply affect every worldview that we have.

     

    In conclusion remaining open minded and truthful in this discussion is a very fine balancing act. We must not overstate our case on either side. "Science is what you know. Philosophy is what you don't know. "~ Bertrand Russell

     

    Next time we will dive into the nature of mutations and what role they play in the evolutionary Yahtzee.          

    Comments (14)

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    Picture of Anonymous
    Brent wrote:
    rrt, I tend to agree. If somebody wants me to believe in their creator then it is up to them to provide good reason for doing so. Poking holes in what I believe to be true (and in my case I believe evolution theory to have merit) in no way adds to the strength of their argument. Present please some solid evidence to back up your claims. I find the term "creation science" insulting. Science in no way attempts to hide from difficult questions, but rather seeks them out.
     
    Could it be true that religion and science may easily co-exist. Science strives to explain natural phenomena using natural forces, and is restricted entirely to the natural world. Religion and spirituality deal with those things that cannot be so easily described, like an individuals beliefs and emotions. Could religion leave the physical world to the scientists and concentrate their efforts in their own field, preventing further conflict?
     
    This is my first visit to this blog and my first comment, I hope I am welcome. I have read only a small section of the site but am very impressed at the level of discussion going on. I hope to develop a similar discussion on my own space in the future, and will over the next couple of months be adding some interesting discussion topics. I welcome any thoughts or suggestions about my site, so please check it out.
     
    Brent
    Oct. 8
    Picture of Anonymous
    rrt wrote:
    Another way of saying this is:

    For 2,000 years science has known the world is round, for 400 years science has known that the Earth is not the center of the universe, for 150 years science has known that vermin and disease organisms do not arise from spontaneous generation...imagine what science will know tommorow!

    The original quote implies that these positions were the scientific consensus, when in fact there was little scientific about them in the first place. When science WAS applied to these questions, the truth began to be evident. A fantastic example of this, which dovetails nicely with the crystallization and refinement of the scientific method, is the history of chemistry, elemental theory and physics, as it grew out of alchemy.

    There's nothing that says the scientific method cannot reach false conclusions. But science is unique in that it is self-correcting. Science is not a process of making wild guesses until disproven, it is a process of paring away the useless information until only the facts remain.
    Aug. 22
    Picture of Anonymous
    plunge wrote:
    "I simply don't trust science...alow me to modify a quote from a movie...."Many years ago science knew the world was flat, science knew the earth was the center of the universe, science knew that leaving old wet rags and wheat in the corner of a room would yeild a crop of mice...imagine what science will know tommorow!"

    It's a bit of a stretch to blame science for thinking the world was flat: that belief was over long before the scientific method was even systematized. We've really only had a robust scienetific community in place for two centuries, and maybe less. But that's just a quibble. The larger point is that science is a method that doesn't promise absolute truth: it promises instead a robust and subject-relevant inquiry into the available evidence. And in that, it's certainly far far more trustworthy than any other known process of inquiry can be. Certainly better than simply claiming to know this or that by your intuition or declaring something to be obvious.
    Aug. 22
    Picture of Anonymous
    Frog-or-Prince wrote:
    I simply don't trust science...alow me to modify a quote from a movie...."Many years ago science knew the world was flat, science knew the earth was the center of the universe, science knew that leaving old wet rags and wheat in the corner of a room would yeild a crop of mice...imagine what science will know tommorow!"

    Science is a great thing but it is much to grand for the huam mind we are but children playing in daddy's office.

    Wether evolution is true or false and even if it can be proven it means nothing for or against God....for all we know "When God created" he did so through evolution and the big bang.

    All the proof I need is reality and conciousness things nothing but some higher form could have created.
    Aug. 21
    Picture of Anonymous
    MoonChild_622 wrote:
    I'm really glad I found your site, and am working (slowly) through it while I'm supposed to be working. If you haven't already read the book "A New Kind of Science" by Steven Wolfram, I'd like to point you in his direction (it's online at http://www.wolframscience.com/nksonline/toc.html).

    I'll try to have a real conversation with you when/if time permits :) (check out my blog to find out why my time is somewhat limited ;)
    Aug. 19
    Picture of Anonymous
    plunge wrote:
    "Abiogenesis, naturalism has a lot of work to do before it can put together a really strong case for the origin of life."

    Naturalism? That's the sort of loaded philosophical language that creationists use, not scientists.

    "Evolution has only been testable and provable on very small scales."

    I disagree. Testability and falsifiability doesn't require something to happen in a lab, or even right in front of you. If that were so, then forensic science would be tantamount to voodoo. But, on the contrary, the evidence for universal common descent (what you mean when you speak about small vs. large scales) is overwhelming and indisputible. And the reason for this is that, like any good scientific theory, UCD makes a network of very strong claims that are vulnerable to many many different independant lines of evidential disproof: it demands a very specific set of circumstances to turn out to be the case in the historical record. The fact that we weren't around to see with our eyes the millions of years in question doesn't prevent us from finding and evaluating the physical evidence relevant to the questions we want to answer.

    "Evolutionary mechanisms have the ability to distinguish new species through adaptation and selective breeding, but it has never been clearly demonstrated that these mechanisms can be extrapolated into the origin of entirely unique features and systems."

    The problem you face with this sort of critique is that we live in a world where systems are not unique and historically don't originate out of the blue. If we did, then the ID camp would have quite a lot to work with. But instead, we live in a world where virtually everything we find in the biological world is sooner or later identified to be an adaptation of a simpler system or even a previously extant but completely different system: like the clotting protein in lobster blood. In short, instead of inexplicable jumps, whenever we are able to look at things in finer detail (whether morphologically or in th egenetic record), we find plausible pathways of modification, not out-of-the-blue innovation. An intelligent designer wouldn't need intermediates or slight modifications: at the very least they'd be able to take a particular innovation from one creature and add it wholesale to another. But we never seem to observe any such thing. Now, of course, since ID does NOT make any strong claims that can be nailed down to any particular evidential finding, so one can always rethink the motives and methods of the ID to escape any such apparent oddities or failures in its imagination or intentions. But it's yet another place where the obvious habits of any intelligent process we are familiar with seem to be missing.

    Of course, it wasn't but a few years ago that the ID line was to deny that evolution could account for new species. Now it's "new organ systems." Nevermind the extensive work that's been done in tracing the evolution of various organ systems. Ho hum.
    Aug. 18
    Picture of Anonymous
    SSNappa13 wrote:
    Thank you very much for the comment on my space. I beleive that the truth is what needs to be found. Not what 'should' be the truth. An Intelligent creator is as good a theory as any right now. Math and Biology tell us it would be impossible for life to accidentally occur in the primordial ooze of early earth. Of course, i am not saying it didn't happen, but perhaps we have the wrong idea of what earth was like back then. Anywho, I appreciate your comment, you seem like a terrific person. I hope we can become freinds, or at least partners in the search for truth.
    Aug. 17
    Picture of Anonymous
    Veinamoinen wrote:
    Ok, I will put my two cents worth in. First, life is chemistry. It is very complex chemistry. It is based on elements which are demonstably created in a cosmos too large to have been created itself by a knowable being. Their creation is part of stellar growth processes. The process has been tested and found to be true. I've done the math on the process and have no quarrel with the process. Life is part of the process. Intelligent life is part of the process. The process came first, intelligence came last. I find no evidence to prove that God was not an outgrowth of intelligence. His existance is as good as the intelligence that created him. Sorry, but you can't prove otherwise. It is scientiffically demonstrable. This doesn't mean God isn't necessary. You see, I have a higher definition of God. He is the source of our knowledge, not our being. God is from the universe, not the creator of it. He created the heavens and the earth the moment the sentence was written that said he did, not before. When we know all, we will know God. It is a worthy goal. Let him teach us his will. For the Christians: Know God and you shall not fear Hell. If you do not believe in God there is no reason to believe in Hell either. It is really quite simple. I look forward to the long sleep. It has been very enjoyable to have visited with everyone. Keep up the debate. God wishes you to learn that we are all part of Him. By the way, I have read the Bible. All of it.
    Aug. 16
    Picture of Anonymous
    SSNappa13 wrote:
    I believe that you are one of the few 'smart' scientists. You refuse to say that either side is 'probably' right, instead you only want the truth. You are not interested in following what is believed to be right, only in finding what is right. It is ignorant for scientists to say that an 'intelligent creater' cannot exist. It is also ignorant for Christians and other religious buffs to say that life cannot have come about on its own. I look forward to your next post.
    Aug. 16
    Picture of Anonymous
    rrt wrote:
    I appreciate your take on that, lama, but I would argue there are very significant differences between religious faith and scientific "faith," so much so that there is no point to claiming science as any sort of faith.

    Science is a material, evidence-based process. The conclusions we draw from it are firmly grounded in that evidence. Some would claim that "faith" is required because we must take other scientists at their word when they report their research--since there is no possible way each one of us could fully review ALL the scientific research that has been and is being done.

    But we don't NEED to do that...that's why the scientific method is set up as it is, with complete openness and peer-review. All scientists review and understand the key research for their disciplines, and qualified people do review anything that comes into acceptance in the community. Further, that process of review is ongoing--research claims are always being re-evaluated and re-tested. When an unexpected and conflicting-with-the-common-wisdom claim arises, our response is "convince me, show me your work," not "get thee behind me, Satan!"

    That last point is, I think, what sets science apart from faith most emphatically. We question whatever we can, and when we find errors or problems with existing claims, we correct them. The recent events with the ivory-billed woodpecker(the "Lord God!" bird) exemplify the method at work, with fierce challenge in the scientific community to claims of the bird's discovery leading to further, stronger evidence (audio recordings) being presented to bolster the claim, such that the strongest challengers now agree the bird is real.

    Faith does not do such things, especially not in a religious sense. If I had to classify science's motto, I'd modify the CIA's policy to "Trust but verify...but really, don't trust much if you can help it."

    I'm aware you might be commenting, rather, on "faith" in the validity of material evidence, of what we can see and test scientifically, as a valid means of interpreting the environment around us. Well...yes? I can't see how you can avoid materialism as default, as that is the policy we all live by in the majority of our daily affairs (unless we are mad). Claiming a materialistic approach as faith-based in an effort to undermine certain scientific positions seems unworkable to me.

    I don't think, by the way, that Ryan would disagree with me here. Our disagreement is simply over the strength and validity of claimed evidence for intelligent design and for evolution.
    Aug. 8
    Picture of Anonymous
    thedaleelama wrote:
    I really hate the term 'creation science'; but while it may claim to be science, we all know it is not. The scientific community seems to have it's head in the sand in what is almost the opposite manner; doesn't seem to keen on talking about faith. Maybe Hume has had to great of influence on me, but you just can't get around faith. That faith may be in empirical data or reason, but it is still faith. I'm not trying to reduce science to the realm of religion, but, simply put, evolution requires faith. What is called 'honest objective science' always has an element of subjectivity to it. I suppose you could take this as an existentialist attacking the agnostic approach. It may sound hypocritical, and it may very well be. But I'm trying to be nice about it.
    Aug. 8
    Picture of Anonymous
    OVERCOMEANYTHING1 wrote:
    Allow me to begin with one man's opinion of you.
    You are very gifted, intelligent, respectable, and serve a worthy cause. This man, John, finds no fault with you or your opinions. Frankly, I support freedom of expression as much as any man. You speak with confidence and do that extremely well. Ryan, I want you to understand this if nothing else. You can NEVER anger me, nor will my existence ever be a source of malice directed at you.

    Having stated all of that, I will now endevor to communicate openly regarding your beliefs and philosophy of science. The better statement would have been that I would simply like to express my beliefs to you.

    1) Much of what you wrote was indeed a truth that I acknowledge without hesitation.
    2) I do not believe that religion and faith are remotely synonymous.
    3) I know that God exists and do not need science to prove what can be seen with my own eyes.
    4) Therein lies the one, distinct difference in us.

    You are highly regarded my friend,

    John
    Aug. 7
    Picture of Anonymous
    -redvelvet1- wrote:
    Keep up the good work... I read "Rocks of Ages" my sophomore year in college... a great book...
    Aug. 6
    Picture of Anonymous
    rrt wrote:
    Again, with respect, some criticisms:

    I gently suggest, without claiming purity on my part, that there is arrogance in stating that the scientific community is ignoring or neglecting difficult questions in evolution, while you are not.

    I ask you to separate abiogenesis from evolution. I don't necessarily mind discussions of it, it's just not really relevant to supporting or discounting evolution. I think I've asked this somewhere here before...

    In your comment that evolution has not been observed on large scales, I sense a hint of the "were you there?" argument, as well as the general micro/macro argument. Certainly, the sort of active, lab-based observation you are referring to is all that is possible on a scale for human lifespans. Yet you seem to be claiming that indirect observation (such as the fossil record or evo-devo) is inadequate evidence in science, which is utter hogwash. This goes back to the basics of the scientific method, and again: as a biology student, you should KNOW this by now.

    There is more work than you seem to realize in eludicating the evolution of complex systems. But even aside from that, we know what mechanisms can be used to evolve such systems, and we have seen those mechanisms at work. In other words, we know what it takes to evolve a complex system, and we've seen all of those tools in action. Further, the evolution of "irreducibly complex" systems HAS been observed in the laboratory, in microprocessor experiments with "evolvable" circuitry. The concept is sound.

    There is a tendency, I think, in talking about biological systems (especially when the notion of IC ones comes up) to speak of them as beautiful machines. They are anything but. These are sloppy, strange, Rube Goldberg arrangements, quite beautiful and capable in their own right, but not at ALL analagous to boat propellors or internal combustion engines. Thinking of them as machines is misleading.

    Beyond all this, I come back to the simple challenge: If you mean to argue for ID, you need to present evidence for ID. Presenting negative evidence for evolution is pointless otherwise...made worse when the negative evidence is of this quality.

    I dunno. I feel like I'm making a nagging shrew of myself here. This isn't my blog and I'm drowning out others who have things to say, and even if I disagree with them, I don't want to be doing that. I'm going to try to distill and limit my comments here in the future.
    Aug. 5

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